thomasmagnum
Posts:88


 | | 08/07/2008 11:37 AM |
Alert | I can understand the school not accepting the shirts with a religous message on them, however not allowing them to post fliers for a bible study is a violation like it or not. Mormon high school students in the state of arizona are allowed to attend class during their regular school day at the mormon temples, the class is called Seminary......and they recieve a school credit toward their graduation for it too. Non-Mormon are not allowed to take the "class" either. If they are allowed to do that why is a local baptist church not allowed to post a flier about an extracaricular event???
| | An Armed Man Is A Citizen, An Unarmed Man Is A Subject | |
|
|
|
JasonY
Posts:2589


 | | 08/07/2008 11:56 AM |
Alert | | Exactly, I think the school person involved just has a beef with the Baptists....... | | "My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
|
|
|
love@hm
Posts:486

 | | 08/07/2008 12:04 PM |
Alert | Thomas,
Not all of what you said about the LDS Seminary is true.
1st. It is attended in either a seminary building or a church building. Here in Maricopa it is at the church across from the HS. The temple is a different building with different purposes and HS students have limited access and have to have a limited recommend to enter.
2nd. I have never heard of a district allowing credit for Seminary - although I will not say I know for certain. Most of the time, if Seminary is available during school hours, it is done as a release time activity. Overall, release time Seminary (world wide) is rare. AZ is one of the few states where it is possible, and even then it isn't always. I actually had Early Morning Seminary - which was before school started. Seminary started at 6:00 AM and then we had to get ourselves to school It was held 1.5 miles from the school. Until my friends and I were driving age, our parents had to provide all transportation. I grew up in Glendale.
3rd. Seminary is open to all who would like to attend. It is not limited to LDS members only. PERHAPS the schools limit who they are willing to give the release time to, but the LDS church does not limit who can take the class. | | | |
|
|
|
JasonY
Posts:2589


 | | 08/07/2008 12:06 PM |
Alert | | I want time for Allah and Buddha....... | | "My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
|
|
|
Michelle
Posts:102


 | | 08/07/2008 12:09 PM |
Alert | I don't think that organizations external to the school should be allowed to advertise on campus at all.
If a student-run Christian club wants to promote an after-school Bible Study that is being hosted on campus -- more power to them. But as others have pointed out, allowing a community church to come in and proselytize to students violates the separation of church and state (it may not be explicit in the Constitution, but has been consistently upheld by the Supreme Court) and opens the school's doors to other non-profits, religious and otherwise. If Planned Parenthood was advertising its off-campus, after-school seminar on safer sex, I imagine that many of those defending the church's "rights" here would find themselves on the other side of the picket line. Edit: Grammar. | | I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
|
|
|
hastings1066
Posts:883


 | | 08/07/2008 12:12 PM |
Alert | Posted By love@hm on 08/07/2008 11:29 AM
I agree with the school to an extent. When prayers that were WANTED BY THE STUDENT BODY were removed from graduations, when some areas did away with the moment of silence (which I used as a time for a silent prayer) we took a separation too far. I don't think the church is asking too much in wanting to donate shirts and towels (which can easily be refused by the receiver) and I don't see a problem with them posting about their study group.
HOWEVER - the lawsuit is going too far. The money that is invested on the district's side is the tax payer's money. They are taking money away from our children through this lawsuit. I support the church in their endevors, but I canNOT support the lawsuit. It simply is taking it too far.
\ Too far! How much is too far when you are defending the right of free speech and freedom of religion? it is the school district that is spending the money to defend their exclusionary policy. They can end this and save the money by allowing equal access. | | | |
|
|
|
RichTig
Posts:0

 | | 08/07/2008 12:12 PM |
Alert | Posted By JasonY on 08/07/2008 12:06 PM
I want time for Allah and Buddha....... and Jim Jones and David Karesh......... | | | |
|
|
|
JCarp
Posts:39


 | | 08/07/2008 12:27 PM |
Alert | If Planned Parenthood was advertising its off-campus, after-school seminar on safer sex, I imagine that many of those defending the church's "rights" here would find themselves on the other side of the picket line.
That is just the point. As it now stands (unless I am mistaken), Planed Parenthood could post to the school's bulletin board, since they're not an official "religious" organization. Yet their beliefs and values contradict others who profess their beliefs and values through the medium of religion.
IMHO, there are many organizations that do not link themselves as a religion, yet profess and proselytes their beliefs upon others, including our children. I suggest that atheism, environmentalism, your “right to choose” organizations, and many others are all currently allowed to profess their beliefs and values through this venue, just as the religious organizations are not. Is that fair?
Again, it should be everyone, or no one! | | | |
|
|
|
thomasmagnum
Posts:88


 | | 08/07/2008 12:30 PM |
Alert | I can tell you when I went to school in the Tempe Union School District: 1.) Students received one 1/2 credit for one whole school year of seminary instead of the normal 1 credit per school year for a normal class. This was the same in the Mesa School district as well. I had friends that went to dobson.... 2.) Non LDS students were in fact not allowed to enroll in the class. In Mesa or Tempe. I know this for sure as I had friends try to do so, they were turned away. They were told they would need to baptized as mormon in order to attend.
No matter what though why would it be fair for one religion to be allowed to be so closely tied with public schools and not another. If you are going to let one do it, how can you not let another. I personally do not care if they let groups do this or not, however its discriminatory to let some and not others.
| | An Armed Man Is A Citizen, An Unarmed Man Is A Subject | |
|
|
|
love@hm
Posts:486

 | | 08/07/2008 12:50 PM |
Alert | I lost my post - now you can all have a longer one, hee, hee.
Hastings: I already said, I support the church in their cause. I simply do not agree with a law suit. The district has a policy, and IF they are sticking with that policy (and not allowing others post/advertise, have little to no separation) then a law suit is going to far. It is taking money away from the students where it belongs, and spending it on legal fees. I DO agree that the district needs to change their policy. I agree with that. I think the church could go about this differently. They can set up camp in front of school's (off property) with petitions and asking people to write letters. I would gladly do both, I just think a law suit is going too far when it comes to wanting to post a flier that is meant as a missionary tool and to get the attention of their own congregants. . . TO ME - it is not a law suit that should take place.
When it was determined the moment of silence and prayers in school took away other's freedoms - it also set the stage for this. I don't agree with it, but I don't support the suit either.
Jcarp, do you agree with the law suit? That is lively discussion for another day 
Thomas: I am unaware of what how Seminary is set up in THIS district. I believe that would determine a lot. IF students here are getting credit for seminary and FBC is being denied the right to post a flier - obviously there is a lot more wrong here and I would truly support the law suit more in that situation.
In terms of what other districts do: It would NOT have been the church saying only LDS members could attend - that would be the districts' decision(s), however, the LDS church would enforce the school rules as we believe in following the laws of the land. Seminary and ALL church EDUCATION (Seminary, Institute, Sunday and weekday mtgs) are open to anyone interested.
(on a side note: I opened a poll on an LDS site about receiving school credit for seminary: out of 21 votes, I now have 20 for no credit, and 1 as a 'yes' credit - so it does happen, but not often.)
| | | |
|
|
|
jeeptj02
Posts:142

 | | 08/07/2008 12:51 PM |
Alert | I would like to post fliers for my new hitler youth group that im forming does anyone know where i may post them? | | | |
|
|
|
RichTig
Posts:0

 | | 08/07/2008 1:11 PM |
Alert | You can post them next to the Baptist flyers. | | | |
|
|
|
DanielSon
Posts:4


 | | 08/07/2008 1:12 PM |
Alert | I went to LDS seminary for 4 years at Mountain View highschool in Mesa. I graduated in 2001 and never received any school credit for that time. I had to take A-period early morning classes at the high school to get the credit necessary to graduate because of the credits I didnt get from Release time. I personally knew of people who were not baptized members of the church who enrolled in seminary with their parents approval. | | "One must live, not only exist; he must do, not merely be; he must grow not just vegetate." - Spencer W. Kimball | |
|
|
|
Michelle
Posts:102


 | | 08/07/2008 1:14 PM |
Alert | Again, it should be everyone, or no one! I agree! I'm just advocating for "no one" as opposed to "everyone."  | | I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
|
|
|
Bionicbunny
Posts:594


 | | 08/07/2008 1:17 PM |
Alert | Unless things have changed that dramatically over the last couple of years the bulletin board at the school is a great place for kids to find a job or an activity for after school (which kids of this age need very badly). No one is forcing the flyer in to each kids hand, no one is standing in the hallway giving a sermon, no one is making it mandatory or even hinting that the kids should join this group, it is meerly an option for them. It isn't hurting anyone.
Itwas a flyer posted on the bulletin board! The school should welcome external organizations posting on the board. Non profits, religious or otherwise, and let the kids know they have options. Especially out in Maricopa there aren't 100's of things for kids to do to stay out of trouble, many of them are looking for activities and just can't find them. | | | |
|
|
|
RichTig
Posts:0

 | | 08/07/2008 1:19 PM |
Alert | Then you wouldn't mind the Aryan Nation or the KKK or the Nation of Islam posting flyers? The kids around here DO need things to do. | | | |
|
|
|
jeeptj02
Posts:142

 | | 08/07/2008 1:35 PM |
Alert | I wonder if first baptist would let me hold my hitler youth group mettings at there church? | | | |
|
|
|
RichTig
Posts:0

 | | 08/07/2008 1:37 PM |
Alert | We can schudule our Nation of Islam meetings right after. | | | |
|
|
|
Cactus Rob
Posts:1041


 | | 08/07/2008 1:45 PM |
Alert | Mixing church and state is always a bad idea, regardless of whether it consists of flyers on bulletin boards in schools or prayers in City Council meetings. It simply opens the door to extremists who will demand a mile after promising to only take an inch. | | | |
|
|
|
Michelle
Posts:102


 | | 08/07/2008 1:46 PM |
Alert | | I still want to hold that seminar on safe sex. "If we don't tell them about it, they won't do it!"Puh-lease. | | I used to be Chelle.
"Well-behaved women seldom make history." - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich | |
|
|
|